3 top tips from Mel Rowsell

1. Hire for culture add, not just culture fit

You need to be very careful with your hiring. Don’t just hire for culture fit, because then you can get a whole lot of people who are all the same, but hiring for culture add and trying to get that diversity. People who share those same values as the organisation who really dig the things that the organisation digs, but who don’t all look the same. So that’s the most important thing in hiring, and not being scared to hire people smarter than you.

2. Onboard new employees carefully

People would come into Vend with very different stories and different experiences of how to work in an organisation, especially as it was growing. We were at maybe 150 people plus. So we were kind of larger, but we acted very differently to other organisations of a similar size. We had a really intensive two week onboarding process, where people would learn about the organisation, learn about how we did things, make friends in the organisation, learn about the entire ecosystem, about customers & the customer perspective, all of this kind of stuff. It was a real hard and fast introduction to everything to do with Vend. So we didn’t leave them to get this idea of what it was like to work at Vend through osmosis. We managed that really, really carefully.

3. Develop your leadership team

Leadership is so important. So that’s why I think development in startups are so important because when you have your founding team, and especially if you are being driven by investment, so you’ve grown really quickly, it’s a race to try and develop your founding team to the same velocity as the organisation is developing. So for example, let’s say your Chief Revenue Officer or Chief Marketing Officer or whatever, comes on board when you are at 30 people. Then you grow to be 250 people, in multiple markets and in multiple countries, and this person all of a sudden, has a much bigger remit, a much bigger team, having to think much more strategically and deal with large, multi-national partners. The stakes are considerably higher.

Yet this person has grown with you and they might be a really great cultural fit. However, there’s a real risk that they’re not going to be able to grow fast enough to be able to do the job competently, when the organisation is much bigger. If you bring in someone from the outside, then you have all the risks of, are they going to be a good culture fit? What dynamics are they going to bring into the leadership team? Or you’ve got, can I grow this person so that they can do this role competently? With mentorship, coaching, training, education, etc.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, organisation, business, founder, imposter syndrome, realised, culture, growth, bit, vend, story, hiring, empathy, person, mel, leadership, development, important, resilient, life, investment, difference, self-mastery, onboarding, book

SPEAKERS
Mel Rowsell, Debra Chantry-Taylor

Debra Chantry-Taylor  00:12 

Welcome to another episode of Better Business Better Life. I’m your host, Debra Chantry-Taylor. I’m passionate about helping entrepreneurs and their leadership teams get what they want out of business and life. On the show, I invite successful business owners and expert speakers to share their successes. They are open and honest about the highs and lows of business and also life as a business owner. We want to share those learnings with you to inspire you, but also to help you avoid some of the common mistakes. My hope is that you take something from each of these short episodes that you can put into action to help you get what you want, not only out of your business, but also your life. So good morning, and welcome to another episode of Better Business, Better Life. Today, I’m joined by my colleague Mel Rowsell, who’s a leadership coach and facilitator, hi Mel. This is probably not a well-known thing about Mel, but she was actually the co-founder of Vend. And we met because she came to an event at the Event Centre I was running in Parnell, through a mutual friend of ours, Declan, and we just hit it off. And we’ve been friends ever since. We work together with clients as well. So welcome, Mel. 

Mel Rowsell  01:18 

Yeah, thanks for having me along. Super stoked to be here. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  01:21 

Absolute pleasure. I’m really looking forward to hearing your story. So before we get started, I always ask my guests just to share a professional and personal best for the viewers, listeners, can get to know you a little bit better. So what would you say is your professional and personal best in your life so far? 

Mel Rowsell  01:35 

Well, let me start with my personal best. And it would have to be my two delightful daughters. Holly and Summer, I think most mothers would attest to this. Nothing really better than having wonderful children in your life. So that would definitely have to be my personal best. And professional best when you asked me that, oh, my goodness, it was so difficult to try and answer. But I think with the coaching that I do, I can have the ability to really change people’s lives and change people’s mindsets about themselves. And I have seen such significant changes in people’s lives as a result of the coaching that I do. And it’s so incredibly gratifying to see that so that I would have to say that that’s my professional best. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  02:26 

Fantastic. Now you tend to work with founders and leaders of private organisations. Is that right? 

Mel Rowsell  02:33 

Yeah, that’s right. Yep, yep, yep. So, so founders, because I know what it’s like to be a founder. And it’s tricky. So I can, I definitely can help founders and leaders. And everything that I do is all about the human connection. So not really strategic thinking or decision making or analysing your competitors in the market or anything like that. But it’s all about mastering yourself and optimising that human connection and creating environments where people can thrive and achieve that, that’s my shtick. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  03:05 

Fantastic, and I guess you know, that came from your days at Vend, right? So most people don’t really know, but you are the co-founder of Vend along with Vaughn. Tell us a little about your story, in terms of starting Vend with Vaughn and where it got to, just share with us a little bit about the journey. 

Mel Rowsell  03:21 

Yeah, well, it was really interesting. My journey with being really happens in three acts if you like, the first act, the second act and the third act. And the first act started actually on the bedroom floor of my daughter’s room, when we were living up in Kerikeri. And Vaughn said to me, I’ve got this idea and to create this new thing for that, you know, for shops, point of sale, but we need to move back to Auckland. And we had a bit of a conversation and within 15 minutes, I was decided that we were going to move back to Auckland. By the time we left Summer’s room that was that, we were moving back. And so then we relocated back to Auckland, and Vaughn disappeared down into the downstairs bedroom for about a year coding the way. We’d run up the stairs with something to test you know, Mel push the button, push the button and all of a sudden, you know, some kind of payment function would come up quickly and we would be all excited. And then you know, eventually, as any founder or entrepreneur will know, it’s lovely to create something, it feels nice and you know it’s exciting, but then you need to find customers and you need to find investors and so started a long slog of doing that well and truly before we had any office space, before we had any other employees, or anything like that. So the very early stage really was about me saying, ‘Yep, let’s do it.’ And really allowing Vaughn to bet everything, except for the family home. Because we had two young children and I wasn’t going to put our house on the line. But we ate through our savings for a couple of years. Well, you know, Vaughn was not earning any money, but coding this wonderful thing that would become Vend.  

Debra Chantry-Taylor  05:37 

Out of interest, did you have the conversation about the house? Because that’s quite a boundary, isn’t it? Like we will do this much, but we won’t do that. Did you actually have that sort of conscious conversation about what those boundaries were? 

Mel Rowsell  05:48 

Oh, definitely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I was happy to support Vaughn in any way, shape or form, except I would not put the house on the line. That for me, was the absolute no-go area, was that we were not going to do that. But in every other respect, there was absolutely, yeah. And I think anyone in a relationship like that will know, you know, it really takes two people, especially when you’ve got children, because, you know, someone’s got to keep the home fires burning while the other person pours himself 100%. into this burgeoning business. Then what happened was that we started to grow, vendors investment, you know, growing by investment and so what happens when you have an organisation that gets, you know, funding is that you tend to grow much quicker than if you’re an organisation that is bootstrapping or growing organically through profit. And so we grew very quickly, and we needed a people and culture person. And I really didn’t want to take on that role at all, I had become quite jaded by human resources, or even back in the day when it was called personnel. But anyway, we couldn’t find anyone and so I was like ok, even though I really didn’t want to do it. But actually, it was really fun, because I could do whatever I wanted to do. Because I didn’t have a traditional manager, or, you know, I could just play and have like a little sand pit, and do what I thought was right. So I really fell back in love with people and culture, and was able to make things up and be my quirky self that I am and, and do all of the things that I thought would be good to do, even though they weren’t traditionally, like best practice, or what other people would do. Yeah. And alongside Vaughn, because you know, that any founder of a business, like the culture of a business is really a representation of the founder or founders. Especially when in those early days, when it’s kind of organically growing. And then when you get to about 30, or 40 people, things tend to break a little bit, because you get the influence of the founder is diluted. And so then you need some systems and some processes, in order to keep going the things that you have built organically, which tend to be pretty good. Although because the culture is representative of the founder, that has all the good bits and also the bad bits. So yourself as a founder that you would rather, you know, not think about well those bits will come out in your culture as well. So there tends to be like a little bit of fixing up requires a little bit of tweaking at about 30 or 40 people mark. Yeah. So and yes. And, you know, in this stage Vend was growing very quickly, moving very fast. Lots of people had jobs with many, many, many, many hats. So you would be trying to juggle multiple priorities in any one day or week or month, and as you know, a typical startup, we just make it all up as you go along, using and trying to get knowledge from as many places as you can, but ultimately having to move so quickly that you just need to make very rapid decisions in order to try and stay ahead of the pack. And then, you know, we were growing and growing up until about 250 people when I left the day to day operations, and growing overseas as well. So you know, having to overcome all of those tricky bits, about opening up overseas offices trying to keep a culture which was more or less the same, but a little bit different. And, you know, trying to hire people overseas, who would be really great culture add to the organisation. And all the time with me trying to juggle that and being a wife, the main caregiver for children, also trying to do, link in, you know, parent help at school, and everything else. So, very interesting, dynamic times with a lot of learning. But what was interesting, and I think that’s something that was, because I can’t, for me, it’s impossible to tell the Vend story without telling my own personal story. And one of the things that was so interesting, and that, for me, was just such a massive dose of the imposter syndrome, which I know a lot of people resonate with, a lot of people have had that experience. And so in this first act of me at Vend, the imposter syndrome was such a cloud over that whole time. Which, you know, was wondering, like, what? Should I be doing this and I’m the right person to be doing this and am I just here because I’m sleeping with the boss, you know, would I get this job if I had applied for the job? You know, and then trying to juggle these hats. So many hats at different times of people and culture person, your camp mother as I was affectionately known. And shareholder. Owner of the business, why? And this is another reason why I think, for founders going on that journey. Everyone, all founders have got multiple, multiple hats to wear. And then learning to wear those hats, yeah. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  12:17 

I mean, so Vaughn came from a programming or data background, you did actually come from a personnel or HR background. So it wasn’t like you hadn’t done this before? 

Mel Rowsell  12:23 

Yeah. No, no, no, but I had come from quite a traditional, I’d been in healthcare, HR in healthcare, before coming into, like, you know, startup tech, so it’s quite different, you know, quite different. I had become quite jaded and had decided to leave HR when I got pregnant with my first daughter, first or second, second daughter, I think. And so because I just had grown not to like it, it’s been very adversarial. And I used to call myself Robo Mel, because I have to go and, you know, do all these things I didn’t really want to do and I had to this persona that I would put on to enable me to do that in that professional sense and I didn’t really enjoy it very much. But when I realised it at Vend that it could be different. Then I came to just thoroughly enjoy it. And I actually wrote a book about my experiences. This book here, Leadership for the Fourth Age. In it I talk about some of the things that I think are important, that I did, I really did. At the end which was all, I was all about empathy. Yep. Everything that I did and do is all about empathy, and understanding other people, and how they tick and what’s up for them, and how to communicate with them, and courage. Because when you’re in a fast moving organisation like that, you have to move quickly, and you have to do things that scare you, whether that’s hiring someone that’s smarter than you, or making a decision with insufficient information, what you deem as insufficient information, or, you know, going down a path that you just don’t know where it’s going to, you know, you’re making bets, you’re constantly kind of making bets on things and being vulnerable. And I think this was one of the things of you know, the camp mother hat was that there was a lot of vulnerability and that I projected, to be really real, very, very real and authentic, which then encouraged other people to be real and authentic. And I really think that that’s probably the key that created the wonderful Vend culture, was that it was a very real, it was all about humans, not about anything else other than humans, and being very curious about your experience and about other people. And being consistent with the way that you turn up. You know, I often joke with my training, that it’s better to be a consistent asshole and inconsistent one. It’s better to be an asshole every day of the week. Yeah, rather than just turning up every now and again as a complete a-hole. That’s confusing, right? It’s that consistency.  

Debra Chantry-Taylor  15:29 

Yeah that’s right. I want to explore a little bit, the imposter syndrome. And when you recognise that you had it, how did you overcome that? And did you share that with people as well? And what would,  because it is something we all experienced, don’t we? 

Mel Rowsell  15:40 

Yes. Okay. Well, let me then wrap up the first act. This was the first act, Vaughn and I started Vend and growing it. And doing you know, all of those bits and pieces, act number one. So then act number two starts, for me in my head, during the week off and Cook’s beach. And a whole lot of stuff had happened. So Vaughn and I were in the process of separating and we’re great friends now, that our separating with best thing. For our, now it’s sort of expanded family. We were four and now at, I think we’re about eight in our expanded family. And so but nevertheless, at the time, it was a little bit harder than now, with sort of 60s perspective. Yeah. So we were separating, the business had gone had to go through a big restructure, because sometimes often in startups, you get your hiring wrong. And we hired in front of the curve, ahead of the curve. And we had to lay a whole lot of people off when the predicted numbers didn’t hit the forecast. Yeah, so that was going on. And because of all of those things, I was talking about, empathy and vulnerability and curiosity. Robo Mel had gone by that stage. So real Mel had to turn up and do that, and that was very difficult. Especially when we had recruited people onto this big why, you know, like this big, changing the world and the world of point of sale, and then you know, having to turn around and let a whole lot of them guy which was pretty difficult. Yeah. So the marriage was ending and the business, which had been going so well, we had a massive speed bump, my dad was diagnosed with cancer. And luckily, he came through and was fine. And at the same time, because Vaughn and I was separating, I had decided that I couldn’t say working at Vend, because Vaughn and Vend was synonymous, so I had to go and do something else. So I decided to start the business that I’m doing now. Which was very scary, because Vaughn was the entrepreneurial button, I was always the very sensible, you know, let’s not bet the house, let’s make to do lists and let’s you know, and, and so, for me, that was really, really scary going out on my own, not knowing where I was gonna get money paycheck for and having to go and earn my own crust. And so all of this happened. And what happened over about six months or 12 months, is that I suddenly got in touch with this resilience and resourcefulness that I never knew I had. I used to think I was not very resilient. And you know, how you do those, like, personality tests. And when you’re in people and culture, you do a lot of them. By dint of, you know, trying them out for other people or whatever. Yep. And you know, what’s going on, you know, I can deal with hard things, I would strongly disagree. And so always, they would be this reinforcement of the fact that I wasn’t resilient because all of these things just mirrored back to me what I thought about myself. And then through the process of that sort of 12 months of massive, massive growth, I realised, fuck me. Excuse my language. But that this was a real, you know, it’s important to use that word. I am so resilient, and I didn’t just survive, I thrived. I absolutely thrived through that time. And I realised that I could do all of this stuff and do it really well. And not just cope, but just, you know, be amazing at life. Just win at life, you know? Yeah. And so it was a real time of finding myself. And then I started working for myself and I remember when I was doing my very first projections for my business, I thought, well, maybe I’ll earn like, $500 my first month. That’s like, maybe I’ll earn that. And then I realised people started paying me for doing what I do, then what I love to do, yeah. And then I realised ‘Holy shit. I’m actually good at this, I can actually do this for other people and get the same results.’ And it was interesting as well, because I bet a lot of people recognise this, too. When I started out in business, I started doing a lot of things that I thought I should do. You know, like, I tried to emulate other people. And probably for about the first three years, I was trying to emulate other people and doing what I thought was the right thing to do. And then after a period of time, I was like oh, hang on a minute, actually, people want me for me. So I need to lean into my stuff, and what I think in my special way of doing things, and so the imposter syndrome got a wake up call. I realised, and that this is one of the biggest realisations in my entire life, that the stories I was telling myself weren’t true. They weren’t true at all. And they were just a load of rubbish. And so these days, when I find myself telling myself a story, that gets me away from where I want to go, or that makes me feel bad or diminished. No, hang on a minute. How do I know that that story is true? Because I’ve had a lot of experience stories like that being untrue. So the imposter syndrome went because I had experienced that it, myself that all of those things that people had been saying, all of the time that I thought were lies, they were actually telling the truth. And I was like, Wow, that’s so cool. I proved to myself that I could do it. And that’s how the imposter syndrome went.  

Debra Chantry-Taylor  22:11 

Fantastic. That was act two. Right? 

Mel Rowsell  22:15 

Yeah. So that was the beginning of act two, and act two saw me have very little to do with Vend, right? Because I had stepped down from the day-to-day operations. I was still a shareholder so I still get the shareholders reports. But, you know, a lot of the vendors that I knew, you know, a number of them ended up leaving throughout that big restructure. And then more people came on who I didn’t know. So when I went into the office, I wouldn’t really know people, which was very strange, really, really odd. And so act two for me was about kind of disconnection. Yeah, like I didn’t, I didn’t really feel super connected. And it was funny, because people would ask me what was going on? And really, I wouldn’t have any idea about what was going on. But it was really gratifying. Because when I would go back in, I would see all of those things that I set up in the very early days still going, well still. Yeah. So and obviously a lot of other great stuff, as well. Yeah, but no, that was really gratifying. So that was Act Two, where just not a lot for me, there was just not a lot of new, I kind of lost myself in the Vend story. Vend continued on without me. And I would have to sound very grateful for everyone who looked after it. Because they did a wonderful job. And then we’re on to act three. Act three, is when I get this phone call saying that Vend is going to be acquired by Lightspeed. Yep. And all of a sudden, the Vend story gets reignited in my mind. And a bunch of things happen at about that time. So we have Vend’s10th birthday party, and a whole bunch of us old vendors get together with the new vendors and celebrate, we have a few parties celebrating the acquisition by Lightspeed, we have Vaughn has his leaving do which I go along to and a bit of reminiscing, and I’m kind of reclaiming that story. And importantly, reclaiming it for myself, because it’s only now, this is the second time I’ve told this story. It’s only now that I’m really figuring out what the story is. You know what I mean? It’s kind of come to a natural end, I guess, with the acquisition, so it was very much I was in there. Then it continued on without me. Then I was involved again, and then sort of coming full circle and understanding what that meant. And in the meantime, you know, I just feel so grateful that and that sort of six years or five years or whatever, when I wasn’t in the day to day, that I’ve just built up this amazing practice that I work in every day, doing the same stuff that I was doing there. But with so many different people, in so many different industries and making a difference in so many different people’s lives. So I think my story is a bit of a wiggly wobbly one. And I think that’s probably quite normal. For most founders, at least, you know, on the outside, it can look quite linear. But in my experience, it really isn’t. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  25:47 

I’m quite intrigued, because obviously, you are all about the human connection and I mean, when a company grows really quickly, like that is he said, it’s different to bootstrapping, because you really are experiencing huge amounts of growth. How do you make sure that the culture is maintained? How do you make sure you do get the right people on board? What sort of things did you do? Especially when you’re going into overseas markets? How do you make sure that you’ve joining who genuinely fit the cultural values and in addition to the team? 

Mel Rowsell  26:13 

Right, well, there’s a couple of things that are super-duper important. Number one, of course, is hiring. You know, so you need to be very careful with your hiring, and not just hire for culture fit. Because then you can get a whole lot of people who are all the same, but hiring for culture add and trying to get that diversity. But people who share those same values as the organisation who really dig the things that the organisation digs, but who don’t all look the same. So that’s the most important thing as hiring and not being scared to hire people smarter than you. And the second thing I would say, is onboarding, because especially with an organisation like Vend did things quite differently, people would come into Vend with very different stories, so different experiences of how to work in an organisation, especially as it was growing and we were like, maybe 150 people plus. So we were kind of larger, but we acted very differently to other organisations of a similar size. So we had a really intensive two week onboarding process, where people would learn about the organisation, learn about how we did things, make friends in the organisation, learn about the entire ecosystem, and about customers, and about the customer perspective, all of this kind of stuff. So it was a real hard and fast introduction to everything to do with Vend. And so we didn’t leave them, to get this idea of what it was like to work at Vend through osmosis. We managed that really, really carefully. And the third thing I would say is leadership, it’s so important. So that’s why I think development and startups are so important because when you have your founding team, and especially if you are being driven by investment, so you’ve grown really quickly, it’s a bit of a race to try and develop your founding team to the same velocity as the organisation is developing. So for example, let’s say your, I don’t know, chief revenue officer or chief marketing officer or chief product officer, or whatever comes on board when you are 30 people, okay, and then you grow to be 250 people in multiple markets and in multiple countries, and this person, all of a sudden, has a much bigger remit, a much bigger team, having to think much more strategically deal with large, multi-national partners, you know, the stakes are considerably higher. Yep. And yet this person has grown with you and they might be a really great cultural fit. However, there’s a real risk that they’re not going to be able to grow fast enough to be able to do the job competently, when the organisation is much bigger. And so if you bring in someone from the outside, then you have all the risks of are they going to be the good culture fit, whatever dynamics are they going to bring into the leadership team? Or you’ve got, can I grow this person so that they can do this role competently? You know, with mentorship, with coaching, with training, with, you know, education, etc… And so, leadership is so important, you know the saying with fish stinks from the head. You know, when I go into an organisation that’s toxic, or in some way horribly broken, I always look to the leadership team, the CEO and The Board. Go well, what’s happening up there? So that’s yeah. So hiring, onboarding, and leadership are the key ones. And then the other one, that’s also important as how you pay people and reward people, because you always follow the money. So if people are doing strange things, chances are, they’re being incentivised for it. And you may not realise that, it may be an unintended consequence of your symptoms programme.  

Debra Chantry-Taylor   

Could you give us an example perhaps? Of that?  

Mel Rowsell   

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of organisations require teamwork in order to get something done. So then if you are requiring teamwork, for people to be able to deliver a great thing to a customer that then you’re incentivising someone on the individual work, they will put themselves ahead of the team, because that’s what you’re telling them to do through your remuneration incentives, right. So on one hand, you’re saying it’s all about teamwork. But with your money, you’re rewarding the individual. Also, another classic way that you’ll see it, is that you might reward the sales team for every single sign-up that they get, even though that sign-up could be a terrible fit to the product that’s going to cause big problems for support. And so if you just incentivize sales on revenue in, and without any idea of how long that person stays around, or their net promoter score or anything like that, then you are potentially causing a problem. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  31:40 

Yeah that makes perfect sense. Excellent. Okay, tell us a little bit about your book Mel. So Leadership in the Fourth Age, what? 

Mel Rowsell  31:46 

Well, I actually have two books. So this is my first one here, Leadership for the Fourth Age. And the fourth age is the imagination age where you have to like, be very creative, be very imaginative, move super quickly, take risks, work collaboratively in order to get stuff done. Because it’s beyond the Information Age, which is just about your head. And it’s into the whole body, the head, the heart, soul, the whole knowledge and wisdom that you get from your body as well. Yeah. And so it’s to do, you probably, I don’t know if you can see this, but I’ve got this little Venn diagram on my wall, because it talks about leadership for the fourth age, being in the middle of three overlapping circles. One is self-mastery. So you need to be able to master yourself. So that you can do what you want to do for the betterment of your future self. The second one is the human connection. So this is all about optimising those relationships with other people, be it one person or a team of people. Because at the end of the day, we’re all humans, trying to achieve something. And the third one is the environment or the organisational culture. Because if you have yourself, mastery of yourself and others, if you have your human connection, but then you are working in an environment that doesn’t support those top two, then that’s not going to be sustainable. So those three things are all really important. And then the second books that I’ve written, which are eBooks are all about on point conversations. So, digging into communication, and how to have a really good quality, high stakes conversation, because pretty much everything in business boils down to communication. And a lot of people are scared of those high stakes conversations. Or they just don’t have some of the basic skills that you can acquire to make it so much easier. For yourself and the other people. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:05 

Fantastic. Okay cool. Hey, I’m conscious of time, because we could talk all day, can’t we? 

Mel Rowsell  34:10 

Oh yeah, and we have in the past. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:13 

Yeah, this has been absolutely fantastic. It’s been really good to hear your Vend story. I hope you tell it a lot more often. I think the tips that you’ve given people are just, yeah, out of this world, and absolutely on point. So people who do want to have a chat to you, and because I know you’re very open to helping people and sharing your founder experiences and things, how would they get hold of you Mel? 

Mel Rowsell  34:33 

You could just go to my website, which is www.melrowsell.co.nz. And there’s lots of buttons there that says get in touch with Mel. Just push the button and you’ll email me and more than happy to chat to people. Absolutely. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:50 

And can they also get the books from that website as well?  

Mel Rowsell  34:52 

They can, yes they can. Yeah. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  34:54 

Mel, pleasure as always. Thank you very, very much. Yeah, we’ll talk again soon. 

Mel Rowsell  34:59 

Yes. My pleasure. Thanks, Debra. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor  35:03 

Thanks again for joining us on Better Business, Better Life with me, your host Debra Chantry-Taylor. If you enjoy what you heard, then please subscribe to this podcast and let us help you to get what you want out of business and life. Each week we release a new short episode which will give a success story and three takeouts to put into action immediately. These will help you take your business from good to great. The podcast is also supported by free resources, templates and useful tools, which you can find at DebraChantry-Taylor.com. I am a trained entrepreneur, leadership and business coach, a professional EOS implementer and an established business owner myself. I work with established businesses to help them get what they want. Feel free to contact me if you’d like to have a chat about how I might be to help you. Or if you’d like to join me as a guest on this podcast. Thanks again to NZ audio editors for producing this podcast. See you on the next episode. 

Debra Chantry-Taylor

Professional EOS Implementer | Entrepreneurial Leadership & Business Coach | Business Owner

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